Mana System Concept

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:01 pm

I was thinking of a variant mana system for spellcasting, but I don't know whether it's a good idea. The basic goals are having resource management as a disincentive to casting their most powerful magic all the time, giving casters a magic option every round of combat, and also unlocking more and more powerful magic with level.

Mana: Caster stat. Starts at 0, rises to 3 (or higher?)
Level: Minimum level for the caster to be in order to use the spell.
Threshold: Minimum mana in order to cast without cost.
Mana Cost: If current mana total equals or exceeds Threshold, costs zero mana. If current mana is lower than the spell's Threshold, then it costs 1 mana.
Upkeep: Yes/No condition, used for spells with duration. Having the Upkeep tag limits the spell to only being active once (no casting it multiple times and maintaining it). Upkeep spells will end their duration early if the caster's mana falls below its threshold.

Example: A fireball with Threshold 1 is an at-will spell until the mage has zero mana. A Dragon Slave, Threshold 4, can be cast by even a wizard with only 1 mana if he's willing to spend that one mana on casting it. It is possible to have a Threshold 0 spell, in which case it's weak magic that even a fully drained mage or a neophyte can throw around; something like magic missile. Threshold and Level are independent, so there can be a level 2 spell with Threshold 5.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:05 pm

can more than a single mana be used to cast a single spell, or extra mana multiplies the effect?

what would the progression of such added mana effects be on the spell?

3 mana used?
1,2,3
or
1,2,4

+1 or x2?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:29 pm

I wasn't planning on allowing casters to nova like that, so 1 mana is the most that's lost on any one spell-cast.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:01 pm

would it be full Vancian then requiring memorization of spells, or only partial Vancian without memorization required?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:26 pm

Not sure where the Vancian is coming in, as memorization is the only real part that's part of Vance's magic.

You learn a spell, and it's now permanently available to be cast as your mana allows. Magic items and spellbooks would have spells that make the bearer count as having learned the spell so long as they use the item (read from the book, point the wand, etc); and some spells would only be available in an item or book.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:10 pm

Vancian casting also refers to cleric spells in D&D because, though without the memorization, the cleric has a limited number of spells.

3rd merged the cleric spells without memorization but still having some sort of limit.

mana pools still imply a limit based on internal factors which is that part of still being Vancian.

most other witches/wizards didnt have a limit to the number of spells cast.
Harry Potter, Bewitched, Hansel & Gretel, Snow White, Merlin, Charmed, none of the older really carried much limit nor do some of the newer.

Memorization may be Vance's claim to name, but it still revolves are a limit that some people associate with it. Thus 4th has only daily that are truely limited.

if i am reading it right you have no limit on some so long as there is mana left, they can be cast infinitely? while others can only be cast while there is mana left?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:46 pm

Maybe it's because I'm really tired, but I am just not understanding what you are proposing with the system? Can I ask you to restate it with a few more examples?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:50 pm

Clerics in 3E have the same Vancian qualities that wizards do, they fill predetermined slots with specific spells and use them as needed. Unless you refer to domain spells, in which case that's a mix with sorcerer casting, which isn't Vancian, and is closer to this system.

And yes, spells with a Threshold are at-will until the caster's mana goes below the Threshold; while spells with no Threshold always cost 1 mana. The idea is to limit the spells that would be OP when used at-will, even at much higher levels, such as wall of thorns that are fine until they're stuck in a wand.

Granted, I could just set the threshold for those spells to be fairly high.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:03 pm

you need to list a few spells with a threshold, and a few without...

magic missile, threshold 1, cost 0 mana
web, threshold 2, cost 0 mana
fireball, cost 1 mana

so....
as long as you have 1 mana, you can cast magic missile forever?
as long as you have 2 mana, you can cast web forever?
each time you cast fireball it costs 1 mana?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:26 pm

A wizard with 3 mana learns several spells.

Magic Missile: Threshold 0
Meteor Swarm: Threshold 4
Summon Monster: Threshold 1, Upkeep
Fireball: Threshold 2

In the fight, the wizard summons ahead of time, then opens up with a meteor swarm. He then casts fireball for a few rounds, then casts another meteor swarm, making the at-will fireball no longer at will, and if he casts one more spell that costs mana (fireball or meteor swarm), his summoned monster will dismiss itself and he'll be stuck with only magic missile because he has no mana left.

A big question is whether some of the spells should have a smaller, secondary threshold. If your mana is below it, you can't cast it even for mana. Example: Dragon Slave - Threshold 4/2. If the wizard has 5 mana, he can cast it at will. Once he has 3 mana, it's no longer at-will, and can only cast it two more times. Once he casts it twice, he has 1 mana left and can't cast Dragon Slave any more.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:37 pm

What stops me from going the Cleric Archer route of keeping active all of the following, with 3 mana?
[*]Magic Weapon: Threshold 1, Upkeep
[*]Magic Armor: Threshold 1, Upkeep
[*]Magic Strength: Threshold 2, Upkeep
[*]Magic Agility: Threshold 2, Upkeep
[*]Magic Transformation: Threshold 3, Upkeep
[*]Magic Arrows: Threshold 3, Upkeep

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:47 pm

Good question. I have several ideas can deal with this.

Have a small number of self-buffs, and many only in magic items
Make sure that a Threshold 4 spell is greater than the effects of all of those buffs
Limit the number of Upkeep spells to the caster's mana

Any of them look like viable options? The first and third are looking like the best ones to use, likely in conjunction.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:52 pm

virgil wrote:A wizard with 3 mana learns several spells.
Magic Missile: Threshold 0
Meteor Swarm: Threshold 4
Summon Monster: Threshold 1, Upkeep
Fireball: Threshold 2
In the fight, the wizard summons ahead of time, then opens up with a meteor swarm. He then casts fireball for a few rounds, then casts another meteor swarm, making the at-will fireball no longer at will, and if he casts one more spell that costs mana (fireball or meteor swarm), his summoned monster will dismiss itself and he'll be stuck with only magic missile because he has no mana left.

A big question is whether some of the spells should have a smaller, secondary threshold. If your mana is below it, you can't cast it even for mana. Example: Dragon Slave - Threshold 4/2. If the wizard has 5 mana, he can cast it at will. Once he has 3 mana, it's no longer at-will, and can only cast it two more times. Once he casts it twice, he has 1 mana left and can't cast Dragon Slave any more.

unhelpful example...

how many spells at whatevere elvel means nothing...it doesnt help explain how the system works...

what does Threshold 0 mean? what does Threshold 2 mean?

this is still not making any sense.

where exactly does this threshold come into play?

ignore upkeep stuff as well, simply what spell can be cast under what condition?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:05 pm

Round 0: Mana 3
Round 1: Cast Summon Monster. Mana remains at 3.
Round 2: Cast Meteor Swarm, Threshold (4) > Mana (3), costs 1 Mana. Mana now at 2.
Round 3: Cast Fireball. Threshold (2) = Mana (2). Costs no mana.
Round 4: Cast Fireball. Threshold (2) = Mana (2). Costs no mana.
Round 5: Cast Meteor Swarm. Threshold (4) > Mana (2). Costs 1 mana. Mana now at 1.
Round 6: Cast either Fireball (Thresh 2) or Meteor Swarm (Thresh 4), either way, their Threshold > Mana (1), so it costs 1 Mana. Mana now at 0. Mana < Summon's Threshold (1), so summon is dismissed.
Round 7: Only Magic Missile can be cast now (Thresh 0 = Mana 0), but it's at will.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:17 pm

I like this plenty. You could try 1 Mana at level 1 (or 2?) then 6, then 12, so that casters' even spell slots can be filled more.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:18 pm

Does this work as an explanation?

Wizard Stat - Caster Level, Mana Points (maximum for high level caster in the single digits, like 3 or something)
Spell Stats - Spell Level, Threshold, Mana Cost
* Spell Level: If SL<=CL, able to cast the spell at all.
* Threshold: Some number equal to or greater than 0, specific to the spell
* Mana Cost: 0 if Threshold<= Mana Points. 1 if Threshold > Mana Points.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:40 pm

AHA!

Threshold > current Mana; spell costs 1 mana
Threshold <= current Mana; spell costs 0 mana

do i have it now?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:41 pm

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:44 pm

had to order it so i could see what changes and what doesnt...was thinking a spells threshold changed for some reason, but the threshold of spells is a constant.

seems interesting, and DOES remove a LOT of limit to spells.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:33 pm

You know, with you explaining your example twice, I kinda get it.

Kinda. It involves tracking 5 numbers. One is effectively a constant for each character, one is a variable that decrements in combat time and three are specific to each spell.

But I still don't understand the math in the "does this work as an explanation?" post, unless like you typoed a comma for an equal sign or vice versa or something. And you haven't worked out the additional complexity of how precisely to cap multiple small buffs.

So I gotta say no way in hell does this pass the all-important "can Josh's buddies play this while going through a case of beer?" test. In fairness, the 1e, 2e, 3e and 4e magic systems also fail that test pretty hard.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:21 am

I'm not really sure what makes this so hard to understand.

You hardly track five numbers, more like three. The spell level and caster level are determined during character creation for making a spell list. Otherwise, you track your mana and compare it to the spell's threshold. If your mana equals or exceeds the threshold, it's free to cast. If your mana is less than the threshold, then it costs one mana point to cast.

Simple Version
You can only have up to three spells active at the same time.
There are three types of spells.

Cost 1 mana
Usable at will, so long as the caster has any mana left
Usable at will, even without any mana

Advanced
The normal system I've been trying to describe, where spells cost 1 mana if their threshold exceeds your current mana pool, and are 0 mana for the opposite case. Upkeep spells cannot have their combined threshold exceed the caster's mana (there are no Upkeep 0 spells).

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:57 pm

virgil wrote:Good question. I have several ideas can deal with this.
Have a small number of self-buffs, and many only in magic items
Make sure that a Threshold 4 spell is greater than the effects of all of those buffs
Limit the number of Upkeep spells to the caster's mana
Any of them look like viable options? The first and third are looking like the best ones to use, likely in conjunction.

Here's another option: stack the costs for all upkeep spells. The only real difference between this and option three is that then you might see someone using lower upkeep spells rather than as many max-upkeep spells as they can.

If you also limit the total number to around four, you can include upkeep 0 spells without things getting too out of hand.